Lex asked if there is a philosophical pragmatic way to start talking about the pillars of Christianity? Barron offered that Christianity is distinct because of this very supremely weird claim that God becomes one of us. That God becomes a creature, but without ceasing to be God and not overwhelming the integrity of the creature he becomes. To me that sounds like he is saying God took this huge omnipotent force and put it in a frail human body whereas he could exist with us, and we should be impressed he didn't pop the balloon. I've often pondered if the earth is where the energies of the stars coexist, but that would require all of us to have a star and it feels like Barron is making a substantial difference between Jesus and us. If we didn't overwhelm the integrity of our bodies, why would he? We knew he was going to come, and we knew he would be born into a baby that was just as frail as every one of us was.

Isaiah 7:14

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Immanuel means "God is with us." That is a critical part in the plan of salvation. Salvation didn't start when Jesus rose. That just locked it in. Salvation started in the first earth age. Call it the time of the dinosaur, but it wasn't like Jurassic Park. We were in our spiritual bodies. We still had mass, and we still looked like us, but we were not flesh so we were not on the menu. We lived and studied life magnified in what was thought to be the eternity. This let all souls live as if they were living forever, and their true colors eventually led us to the katabole. God ended that level, and based on what your position was this second level has each of us coming here one at a time. We overlap generations with our heritage, because too many souls followed their heritage blindly before the katabole. Overlapping lets the culture and scenario develop, but once one reaches their age of accountability they are fully responsible for their own actions.

Jesus came here like us in the same way we did, because all souls have to play to get to the next level (the eternity). When Christ was on the mount of transfiguration, what did he look like? He looked like himself. He was recognized, as was Moses and Elija.

Matthew 17: 4

Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

They too looked like themselves. We are not floating energies. We are tangible, solid, and operate within the rules of earth's environment. When Christ returns, what's he going to look like? He is described as looking like he looked when he was here.

Revelation 1: 13

And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

So God had this "shape" when he was here, and later when he comes back he has the same shape, and when he comes back we all transition back into our shape. There's the same image two times right there, so why would his shape be any different back when Satan rose and got 1/3 of us to agree? And that means why would you be any different? Yes it is true that God became one of us, but we also all become us. As we were, as we are, and as we will be.

Born From Above

John 3: 3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Our culture views being born again as a Christian person who has made a renewed or confirmed commitment of faith, especially after an intense religious experience. They are saying it's an epiphany that snapped them into gear. I'm sure that's possible. For example, you can have someone install sod in one day, and then the owner instantly has the love and excitement to water it daily, cut it, stare at it. It started as a finished product. While that's a real experience most of sprouted over time from seeds. Doing a lawn from seed does not happen in a day. It does not present immediate results, and it takes time to nurture it. I believe most students are in that group.

Everyone who gives their heart to Christ has an emotional up welling. It is an event. It marks when perception becomes knowledge, and the older a person is the harder the impact. It's not the epiphany event as they are portraying. I sincerely congratulate them on their new found inspiration, but there are simply too many people who have never heard of Jesus that have come and returned. There are too many leaders in other religions that have done wonderful things for mankind. We have to step away from "I'm right you're wrong" to "how did that person handle their test". Regardless, the idea of being born again as an epiphany is a straw man for their position. If you want to steel man the position you have to ask what if born again wasn't the original statement? Born again is written in your Bible is English, but that word "again" should have been translated to the English "from above". Let's see how that corrections unlocks a door and supports the context I'm presenting.

John 3: 3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

When you entered the womb you came from above. Most people count time for us as starting when we get here, but that's not eternal and we are. Before we are conceived we are in heaven with everyone else who isn't here. When in the flesh we are here. After we're done here we go back. Your soul does not start when you are conceived, otherwise Jesus would have had to be first, not thousands of years into it. That would be a circular reference...

John 3: 13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

It says right there that everybody you can't get there if you didn't come from there. Even God had to leave there, come here, and return. It's documented right there. You are the "son of you" that started at conception, but God knew exactly who you are. That's how he's able to pick the time in history, and the scenario best suited to test your soul fairly.

Jeremiah 1: 5

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Being from above is how he knew us before we were born. It's why nobody here can get there unless they started there. But we have to dig deeper. Why would being born from above be required, unless there was a choice? You couldn't have made that choice if you didn't exist prior to conception. You may say that's because God knows everything, but I would respond that he knew you because you were both there. Doesn't every parent amaze their kids sometimes by telling them a memory so far back the kid can't remember? Oversimplification? Maybe, but the point is being born puts your soul in an undeveloped being without memory of the past, just like the fine line in time you're able to remember.

Divinized

Barron suggests that God became a creature so he can divinise the world. He said the Greek fathers always said God became human that humans can become God, and he feels that's a good way to sum up the essence of Christianity.

I wrestle with this the more I think about it. We are already eternal beings. We are not looking for a way or method of becoming an eternal being. We are not here to become divine. To what purpose? Tell me how that fits in the big picture? Barron point to Paul teaching we are grafted onto Christ as the church. We become like cells and molecules in an organism, and that's the church, not a building. I agree to an extent. The simplicity of this should be that we are all on the same page, and we are all doing our best to do His will for our lives. Not that we become some "element" that isn't a being, but part of a life force.

If God came here so we could become gods, does that mean we become a "to be to be"? If so did the divination shoot through time past and future from when Jesus was here? And wouldn't that mean we are already "to be to be", or how does the timing of God coming here tie into the timing of when we become gods? Finally, if man became a "to be to be" then God would have also had to become a "to be to be" at some point.

Barron takes it further claiming it's not just us, but everything on the earth becomes divine. Jesus is drawing all of humanity, but ultimately all of nature... all of creation to himself. Maybe I misunderstood, but if a tree is divine does that mean it lives forever in the eternity, and would that be as a tree or does it too become a "to be to be" or part of God's "to be to be"? I agree the tree is alive, but it's not a living soul, so we're going to cut it down to make things, like homes. This physical reality we call earth is the garden, and when Christ returns he is staying. We're not going anywhere. We will have heaven on earth for the eternity. However, people seem to forget we still have to "tend" the garden. We will exist here amongst the elements. That takes action, tools, knowledge, and a lot more than just "being in heaven".

I also don't get why God coming in the flesh makes all of life and creation divine? It doesn't any more than you growing an apple would make that apple divine. It sounds like an apple story all right. We'll unpack that later, but it sounds to me like divination is what the serpent offered.

That is not why Christ came. He came to defeat death, and he did.

1 Corinthians 15: 55

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Corinthians 15: 56

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1 Corinthians 15: 57

But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

He came here under the same circumstances we all agreed to, which are the terms and conditions covered in the plan of salvation. Trust me, you're here so you clicked "accept". It all had to be documented before we all committed. Now we have the heritage documented from Adam to Christ, and records of how Jesus successfully fulfilled his role just as written. From that victory we are all qualified for forgiveness under the plan of salvation. Those details get worked out in the Millennium, and enforced at the great judgment, and those who pass will live eternal.

While the Greek fathers may have pondered this deeply, they wrestled with anything beyond this second earth age scope. Their creation starts in Genesis. I also know my comments do not align with what Barron is saying, so whether it's willing or withheld I seriously doubt these guys have the three earth age perspective.

2 Peter 3: 5

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

The Greek fathers weren't dumber than us, they just had less to pull from. They were (and still are) just as smart as us. All within in our spectrum anyway. When you get to heaven the people who were born in ancient times aren't going to be wearing ancient clothes, or be trapped in the knowledge scope of that time. All of them are going to be just as we who are alive today will be when we return. That means whatever the fashion is in heaven these days. All of us have been dumbed down for this level, proportionately to our test, and all of us will be restored for the next level.

I still wouldn't lean on the Greek fathers though, because the details of the context I'm explaining wasn't for them at their time. They worked with what was revealed in their time.

Daniel 12: 8

And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Daniel 12: 9

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Even though it was written back then, the knowledge and understanding from the word is released when it's time. It's not a dead document.

It's time.

Dignity

Barron says if God becomes human that means there's a dignity to being humanity, which goes beyond anything that any humanist has ever said from ancient to contemporary. He feels Christianity is the greatest humanism imaginable, because God became one of us in order to divinise us.

Humanism is a secular system that does not have any gods, and humanists don't believe in an afterlife. They live by a set of ethics, and they believe the ramifications of their actions affect our world and future. They belief after a person dies it's all over for them. Barron suggests there's more to it than just this. He said the goal of his life is to become a participant in the divine nature. I would ask to what capacity? Would you be conscious, or like a tree? Are you an entity, or just part of the life force?

Barron said he doesn't think there is a humanism greater than god making us divine, and because of that humanism is profoundly influenced by the incarnation. For me that just means Christianity is so true that even those who don't believe know what's right from wrong. That is our nature. What I'm not sure about is what this has to do with humanism, other than Jesus check mated them by doing the greatest thing for humanity that could be done. If that's the point I agree, but there questions.

Barron feels the notion of God as noncompetitive to us is important, because so many systems from mythology onward that have these competitive understanding of God. When Jesus says to his disciples the night before he dies, "I no longer call you servants, but friends" it's an extraordinary moment. Barron continued that every God has been served, and that's the best we can hope for... to be as the servant of God. You know, "I'll try to obey you Lord. I'll try to do what you want", but when Jesus said "I no longer call you servant (or slaves in the Greek), but friends". I don't know, I can't imagine anything greater than that... becoming God's friend.

I think that's a beautiful vision. A friend, a relationship, a bonding. I think there's a huge difference from being as a bride to Christ, versus in service under a god that toys with us at his whim. But I want to dig deeper, just based on what we've covered so far. We have men and women on the 6th day. Rest on the 7th. Adam on the 8th. That's thousands of years the 6th day creation had to develop their religions and cultures. We also know it wasn't until Adam that knowledge of God was here, but it's in us. It's natural for us. Just like the humanist you don't need a god to tell you what's right and wrong. But we have an added element to the mix. We know the fallen angels were coming and going. Now you know who flies the bad UFOs. Now you know how some of these things were started. Don't worry though, God has his too.

My supposition is that the fallen established a lot of the religions outside of the three main prongs from Judaism. After all, it does fit the context. First and foremost Satan is challenging God for the throne. That right there is a religious position. It's not a religion. It's not a denomination. It is a battle for the highest religious seat, the mercy seat. So regardless of the adaptation to culture and era, the influences established a system from which each soul can still be tested in their scenario. I didn't say that makes their religion correct. I said it played its part.

Not Born From Above

It may sound crazy to think we had a choice to be born or not, but if we didn't then that means the fallen angels are puppets, but they are not. They are a group of souls that are close enough to Satan that they sincerely believe they can disrupt the plan salvation. They tried in the first earth age, so to them this is just the second half. Control of the eternity is on the line. These guys don't care if the game is played fair or not. They just want to win at any cost. As such they made the choice not to be born, but to come here in their spiritual bodies, even though they new it meant a DQ if the plan of salvation succeeded. They thought in their super state they could control us in our dumbed down state.

Jude 1: 4

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Men who were before of old are from back in the first earth age, who have by order or decree been allowed to break this rule. It both sealed their fate, and played its role in the testing of every soul.

Jude 1: 5

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

He's saying you knew this before, because we all did. We knew who these cats were. We saw the mockers and haters. W e know there are those that won't make it... but it still has to play out. On any Sunday someone could turn around, show up and win unexpectedly. I believe God's betting on us to meet the challenge, even though there will be some souls simply hate God. You see them everywhere these days. I believe the majority of the 1/3 that stood with Satan is here now, and the one group that hates God so much they refused to play or be born are about to make their final stand.

Jude 1: 6

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

These angels still exist, and they are going to be accountable for their choice at the second coming. It's that five month period from when they get here to that second coming that's the issue. They are not here yet, but they are coming back before the true second coming. And guess who's escorting them?

Revelation 12: 9

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And when they come it's going to be just like it was the first time they came. Just by population growth alone is why I believe the bulk of the souls that rebelled against God back then are here alive today. This is the biggest test of time.

Matthew 24: 38

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

That's the time of Noah. They were giving and taking in marriage. That means they had physical bodies. Their offspring were giants (geber). That means they could reproduce. These were souls that came here as adults without "dumbing down" via birth. That's what the flood was all about... reclaiming the fallen, and cleaning up the game board. It was also allowed to happen as an example for us so we would recognize the time. Also never forget, we all experienced the katabole together. That was a singular event. In this stage we are spread out over time, but our tests go back to that shared singular event. History repeats because we are all facing a similar test, just in a different time.

Since the fallen angels weren't born, when Christ returns as King of kings the contract is enforced marking the transition to the Millennium, and they will die instantly. These guys cheated. They do not get the benefit of the Millennium. That has already been determined. God eliminates their eternal soul. Even though that's how it ends for them don't think they aren't going down without a fight. They have nothing to lose, and their only hope of a continued existing is to defeat God. So when they come back with their knowledge they are going to be all business, and they knew you there even though you don't know them here. That's quite a bit of leverage.

Revelation 9: 10

And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

The part they know most is the word, because they are coming here to present Satan as Christ returned. They are going to leverage the scriptures to try and convince you they are legit. If they know that much then they surely know they only have 5 months. We just read it in the last verse. Add to that back in Matthew we learned their time (Daniel's 70th week) would be shortened.

Matthew 24: 22

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

That's how convincing they are going to be. So realistic that even those who know it's coming wrestle with how true it appears. This will be a global event unlike anything we can imagine. It is the peak of humanity, and they are coming to prepare you for their king's arrival.

Revelation 9: 11

And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

That is Satan in both languages. Satan also wasn't born from above. He's the leader of the fallen. He's going to appear halfway through the five months, and he's going to be more radiant than people are prepared for. He's going to be absolutely stunning. He's going to stop communion, because he's going to claim to be Christ returned... and the world is going to believe and follow him.

Why we're here.

Individually we come here to live a life whereas when reviewed God will have conclusive evidence to our position in each scenario. If we are successful we don't gain divinity, because we are already eternal. We get to keep our eternal life as a living soul. Those are the ones who participate here on earth during the next age. To get there we are hoping we play our hearts well enough that we don't get extinguished. That's the challenge. That's the second death. Don't get blotted out. It's not gaining eternity that's the hope, it's not losing it, because it's already yours if you want. That's what Jesus did.

When Jesus says to his disciples the night before he dies, "I no longer call you servants, but friends" I believe it's because we are all in this together, and while God is not a respecter of man, He does love his family and those who keep him in their heart.

We are not God, that is an office held by the soul that is the Father (creator), Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (God's Spirit). He is the King of kings, and his plan for this second age is to weed out the souls that would ruin heaven like they tried to do before. You already took a position once. We all did. The scenario you are in today, and your personal positions or efforts dealing with God are all part of your test.

The good news is once you reconcile this it is easy to get a perspective on why we are here, and what this is all about. You're still going to get tested, but at least you know what the purpose of the test is, and if you are doing it his way you will not be given more than you can handle.

1 Corinthians 10: 13

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Christianity is the documentation of the plan of salvation, and how it plays out throughout time, until all have played.